What would you want in a 5th Season?

[Red Mage Dragon Tiamat]

@ Meons:

Digital love affairs huh^^

[BigPapa]

I want partners again. This isnt power rangers.

I also dont want a huge amount of characters. Tamers was good with three. 5 is ok also. But, if people like Jeri dont get digi's with every stage used, i'd rather they not get partners. & i dont like them getting partners that stay in champion form like Gatomon & Leomon did.

[Wisemon]

Hey Notorious B.I.G., you got a problem with the Power Rangers? Fortunately for you, I'm also on the East Coast. I saw over 290 of the first 300 episodes, including all of seasons 1,2, and 4. I've seen every episode of Digimon from seasons 1,2, and 4. What do the shows have in common? For both I was willing to miss episodes from season 3 (actually, I only missed the Megidramon episodes, and that was due to VCR failure) because it wasn't up to par. I don't want to revert back to a season 3 style of Digimon. Three characters, even three good characters, isn't enough for the whole season. However, throwing in characters with no characterization, like Kazu, Kenta, and Suzie, just makes the matter much worse. It's like taking away the Power Rangers' weapons and having them fight in ninja robes. Season 4 of Digimon was like the Zeo revival, and getting J.P. was as good as getting Jason back to play the Gold Ranger.

[Red Mage Dragon Tiamat]

More then 5 children & digimon pairings. That's for sure.

[Nate Hunter]

I think there are certain 'ideal' values in the show that can be aimed for, which I'll get to later. There are several great concepts I'd love to explore, but don't have the time to write all of them as their own stories. Among the ideas:

Negative Crests that are opposites of the orignal 'positive' versions, which are used to bring balance back to the Digital World after Zero Two, where Light endd up being the unbalancing force.

The Digital World is an organized system, and the Kids and Digimon are "rebel agents", trying to bring down the corrupt powers that control the system. The humans are in danger because if they're found by the system, they'll be killed.

The 'Dark Ocean' world being explored by a team of Chosen Kids, preferably from America.

A follow-up to Tamers, with a more involving and emotional plotline, and still involving the original Tamers -- don't introduce new ones, unless they're from a Gaiden series...

Gaiden, or side-stories, from the original three seasons. Posit the existence of new Chosen Children, possibly from America (or any country but Japan), and set their adventures in the same time-frame as the original three seasons. If successful, do a Gaiden continuation of Zero Two (see number three in this list) and involve the Gaiden characters from Tamers in a normal continuation of that series as well (number four in this list).

Those are some of my ideas -- I do have plans for Adventure, Zero Two, and Tamers Gaiden stories, I've started all three of them. I also have a story planned to follow Zero Two Gaiden (called World of Darkness; see Number 3 in my list of ideas), and a continuation of Tamers which (as in Number 4 above) does involve my Gaiden characters, it's called The Digital Matrix.

As for my "ideal" values for a Digimon series, I've found there is clear space for difficulties whether you create a cast of 8 pairs or not. But the more characters there are, the less development they get in one year's worth of 20-minute shows, or one "season's worth" of writing. Too many hcracater also leads to scenes where a certain character may seem to be ignored, simply because they have nothing ot contribute.

Three, on the other hand, is often too few for a solid series. A series can be written about three people, but the world must be built to allow for such a series, which Digimon often is not, even in Tamers. With 5 or 8 you can divide them into teams that can move separately, with 3 you cannot. Even considerign the added muscle of Juri/Leomon and Hirokazu/Guardromon, they weren't well enough developed -- during the Digital World arc -- to make a proper team. And Ryo was never properly developed inside of Tamers, at least for American viewers.

I find that Three can make a sturdy series, if given a solid supporting cast that doesn't become overly involved. But the IDEAL number of characters has long been present in Hero Teams -- Leader, Muscle, Brains, and two or three back-up characters (usually "Cool" and "Rich", with "Stalth" for a third backup). The sentai style of shows in Japan pioneered this very well, occasionally using less and occassionally using more. But even before then American knew it worked -- the X-Men and Avengers are classic examples of this formula. In the classic X-Men, Cyclops led, Beast was 'muscle', Marvel Girl was 'brains', Iceman was supposed to be 'Cool', and the Angel was 'rich'. This works well for a series focused on any sort of team, including Digimon.

In this, I believe that Zero Two and Frontier were partially ideal seasons. However both met with flaws -- the greatest of which was that they turned into Sentai Series, with a "one-year war" formula which had to be wrapped up quickly -- too quickly in both cases. Though it worked reasonably with Frontier, at least in my opinion, it did not work so well with Zero Two. The epilogue to Zero Two could have been sacrificed to give a better conclusion to the events of Zero Two, or another episode added to allow for both elements to be utilized. Character Development fell during the last half of Zero Two as well, focusing too heavily on Ichijouji and not the rest of the characters -- Frontier fell into the same trap after Kouichi was introduced, but they still maintained the balance of action that was necessary for a good 'Sentai' series.

I believe that Tamers could have built upon the foundations of Zero Two to create an excellent story by givng a good supporting cast instead of giving almost no character to the Supporting Cast. Ryou, Hirokazu, and Kenta could have become an excellent backup to the Primary Tamers, but they failed in the respect. I feel that Takato was unjustly considered the leader, but the only appropriate one, since Ruki was 'muscle' and Jenrya was 'brains'. That left two characters vying for 'cool' and nobody to cover the fifth spot, whether 'rich' or 'stealth' -- Kenta was a secondary "brains" and Shiuchon was 'cavalry', and not enough to matter.

I'm ranting now, this is why I don't like to talk too much -- because I talk too much. Tamers had the best overall plot, left space where a sequel could have been placed, and then went over kids' heads by getting too scientific. Frontier tried to make up for it by being a sentai series, but failed. Adventure and Zero Two were the biggest successes in the Digimon series, Tamers was great until D-Reaper and the Monster Makers showed up, and Frontier was an apology for the flaws of Tamers. "International", or whatever the fifth season ends up being called, has to be able to kindle interest in a large enough fanbase to make up for the declining popularity of the show lately, and if the fans can't agree on what they want in "International", how can Toei know if they'll have a working formula? I'd like to see either a continuation of Zero Two or Tamers, or else a Gaiden series, which I feel is best suited to Tamers. For something new, though, I'd like to see something akin to my Digimon Revolution concept, with the Neo Savers and a system that's hunting them down... But I'd also like Toei to focus the next season to teens and young adults instead of children, which I doubt will happen.

Ideals for Digimon --
1a) A 'sentai' style story AND team, because you can't have one work well without the other. OR
1b) A pet-moster/Tamer style story (please no... please, please no). Would work best if based on V-Tamer and/or Digimon Chronicle (yep, the comics).

2) Something that is enjoyable to kids and teens and young adults -- even if you aren't targeting teens and young adults, they might watch it with siblings/children, and if they like it they might tell friends about it.

3) Solid characterization and development -- we don't need the Ken of Kouichi style development, just normal growth of characters through their trials.

4) ROMANTIC PAIRING[S] -- Even though these aren't necessary for kids, they can catch the interest of viewers from all ages. If you have even one female human, include some sort of romantic issue or complication in the storyline of the series.

5) A solid, but not overdeveloped, Supporting Cast. Even if there are only three kids, a PROPER supporting cast can overcome the flaws inherent, so long as they are NOT overdone.

Any ideas on this? Yes, I think Eight pairs is too many, and three is probably too few in a kids show -- You go, pretty much, with a focus on 1 main character or 5/6. Otherwise the story gets tangled. This doesn't apply if they choose a more episodic style akin to Pokemon for telling the stories, though.

[Wisemon]

Wow Nate, you made a hell of a lot of good points. In case you couldn't tell, Frontier is my baby. I already noticed the character for character with the X-Men, but it's not quite the original X-Men. Takuya:Cyclops(eyewear leader), Kouji:Wolverine(kick-ass loner), Junpei:Beast(brains and brawn), Izumi:Storm(wind girl), Tomoki:Iceman(ice kid), Bokomon:Professor X(bald and can't fight for himself), Ranamon:Mystique, Arbormon:Sabertooth, Grumblemon:Toad, Mercurymon:Magneto, Cherubimon:Apocalypse, Kouichi:Archangel. As far as the other stuff goes, check out what I said in my poll (both posts). Basically, I agree with you, but I don't believe in having "supporting" characters. Every character deserves characterization. That's where the third season failed miserably. Kenta was not another "brains". He was nothing, and it was a damn shame. Oh, then there's the Pokemon thing. If Digimon takes on Pokemon's format, I will put my foot through my T.V. screen. If it wasn't for the fucking cards and video games, Pokemon wouldn't still be on the air. That show is staler than a 1956 fruitcake. I'll start watching again when Ash and Misty finally start fucking.

[Zephyr of Darkness]

YAOI!!!!!!!!!!!^o^

[Nate Hunter]

When I said "Pet-monster/Tamer style story", I did not mean episode-driven drivel like Pokemon where every episode seems to reintroduce the same main characters as ever -- that is why I comment "please no... please, please no". However, a story driven primarily by a single character could still be good -- it has been done in various mediums and styles.

Wisemon, I know you love Frontier to an almost unhealthy degree, but all of us here probably have what people would consider "unhealthy" interests in some of the Digimon or human characters, so I won't put you down on that. There's also much more to the similarities of the X-Men and Frontier cast, though, that is beyond the powers/appearances, and is in the personalities. Note that I use somewhat different corellations between them, spanning the entire history of the X-Men.

Takuya & 'Slim' Summers: Both are confused about what it means to lead a team at first, but over time they grow into it through experiences both positive and negative. Both have more or less heat-based powers, and over time both go through a period when they so doubt themselves that they're willing to give up.

Kouji & Logan Logan: Both are associated with fierce predators, prefer to work alone, and have no qualms about fighting even if the enemy must die in order to win the fight. Both also use Japanese fighting styles based upon the Bushido code, and also have uncertainties about their past. Both also come to look after the 'kid' of the group (Tomoki & 'Kitty' Pryde/Jubilation Lee) in their own unique way.

Junpei & Henry McCoy: Both are not the "ideal" appearance for a superhero, but because of this they have a chance to develop both physically and mentally -- In addition to being a genius, McCoy was a football star in high school, before joining the Xavier School. In spite of their size and shape, both are quite agile.

Izumi & Ororo Munro: Both control the power of the wind, and are clearly different in the setting they are thrust into -- Izumi because she grew up in Italy, and Storm because she was considered a weather goddess. Both struggle with their being outsiders during the early times in their respective teams, and there is little doubt of a shared romantinc interest, whether acted upon or not, for both with the "third" member (Junpei & Beast).

Tomoki & Katherine Pryde/Jubilation Lee: The "kids" of their respective groups, all three are curious and want to explore their strengths, but at the same time they are afraid of doing something wrong. All grow into a mature confidence more befitting of a young adult (not teenager/child) and stand up to adversity in their own ways. [NOTE: Likely if Frontier spawned a sequel, Tomoki would be in it to link it clearly to Fontier, the way both Shadowcat and Jubilee did in Excalibur and Generation X.]

Kouichi & Warren Worthington III: Well, both have one major similarity -- they were used by the greatest dark force known to the entire World they were sworn to protect, except Kouichi never started out as a hero. Both were an avatar of darkness and death. certainly applies after the Spirits of Darkness were purified. Note however that I feel this is more appropriate:

Kouichi & Victor Creed: Both have a mysterious past which is clearly linked to the "loner" of the heroes, are aggressively violent, but do have memories of the 'lover' from the heroes which either fuel or dampen the rage (yes, Creed has had times when he's stopped fighting Logan because of these memories, though they're very rare). Both are "dark" to the others "light", and provide a balance wherein only one of them can defeat the other, and it's never certain in advance.

Cherubimon & Sinister: Both are corrupted tools used directly by the greatest evil force in their respective worlds, even when they feel they work to their own ends. They can be turned agaisnt this force at times, but generally are unaware of the subtle control being used on them. They feed the darkness of the world in order to prepare for the greater evil on the horizon.

Ranamon & Rogue: Great power for these two comes at a great price -- While Ranamon cannot completely control her stronger form, Rogue is unable to so much as touch anyone for fear of leaving them comatose. Both suffer by hurting the one they love because of this price, Ranamon loses her own beauty when she is conquered, while Rogue must drive away those she comes to love.

Arbormon & 'Black' Tom Cassidy: Both have powers based upon plant nature, and are nigh on to invincible when using their powers skillfully. Their powers and appetites overcome them, however, and both fall to time and their own strength, Black Tom by losing control and Arbormon by being betrayed (Kouichi ruthlessly destroyed Arbormon arfter the children defeated him as Petaldramon).

Mercuremon & Mimic: Despite showing great power, and even the ability to copy the skills of his opponents and allies, both are weakened as much as strengthened by their powers -- For though one combines skills flawlessly (Mimic) his power levels come to exceed those of the originals, while the other is unable to combine the powers he copies due to an oversight. For both this leads to their downfall, while also being their greatest asset.

Grottomon & Marvin (Or is it Fred?) Dukes: Nearly unstoppable, they succumb to gross incompetence and stupidity when they are finally beaten. Even given a team to work with, they lack the competence to do their job as well as their allies, and so are the first to fail or fall.

Bokomon & Destiny: Both use books as a source of knowledge, one recording the future while the other learns of the past.

Now to add a note here, when I refer to "supporting" characters, I don't mean they can't be regular, but they have a less developed personality -- for examples, look at Zordon and Alpha in the old seasons of Power Rangers: Neither had an especially developed personality, but they were both in most all, if not every, of the episodes. Also characters who help move the plot but do not appear in every episode (Holy Angemon and Leo in V-Tamer), and have a general but not developed personality.

Furthermore, in response to your comment abput only the Games and Cards being cause for Pokemon being on the air, that isn't true -- It gets good ratings in the US, and so they continue to dub it. It gets good enough ratings injapan, and so they continue to make new episodes. In addition, Misty is no longer in the cast of Pokemon as of the current season, she has been replaced by a beginning trainer named May (Haruka in the original) who is the daughter of Houen's "Pokemon Professor". There's also some kid whose name I haven't quite caught, and after a number of episodes Brock (Takeshi) returned.

As for Ash and anyone "fucking" in Pokemon or Digimon, the show is for little children, not young adults, teenagers, or business professionals, so there will never be "fucking" inthe show, nor will there be foul language or overly dark overtones. People complain about those sorts of things not being there, but they're not supposed to be there because of the target audience. Digimon targets a slightly older age group, but it is still a children's show made for and targeted at children -- the fact that Japanese children aren't babied like American children is the sole reason there are darker stories and tones in Digimon is because it's meant to feel like a 'sweeping' story, not just a feel-good run though Pokeland to "catch 'em all".

Pokemon was made to be a happy story that doesn't have a lot of interconnected arcs that need to be followed to get it. Thet's why it has bright colors, cute monsters, and the minimum plot needed for an episodic series. Watch a series like... Rocket Power or Fairly Oddparents to see American examples, though as a moral seris Rocket Power sometimes touches on issues liek stealing, ripping people off, and skipping school (etc., etc.)

Digimon was created to be an adventure story, and as such it touches darker subjects than Pokemon ever will outside of the movies (and the Digimon movies go beyond even that). That's also why the monsters look like they really fight, the world has dark colors and natural tones, and a plot that does sweep through the whole season, not simply an episode or two.

I just spent an hour writing this post, and it's almost 2 AM here in Michigan, so I should be getting to bed. I meant to be in bed almost an hour ago, but... Anyhow, think about it as a single-character "Adventure" series instead of an episodic "Pokemon" clone. I never meant to make people think of Digimon catching and training, just of a story driven by one character. I would probably give the series up if the next season of Digimon were episodic, but it may happen. G'night folks.

[Wisemon]

I think you're a few ranks above me in your knowledge of X-Men, although I didn't go into nearly as much detail in my explanations as I could've...the way you did. You said everything that I was implying/thinking and then some. If it's any consolation for the time you lost, this is definitely the most impressive post I've ever read.

Both have more or less heat-based powers

I think Cyclops's optic blasts are actually a form of powerful radiant light energy, not heat energy, which is why the ruby-quartz can contain them. They might bounce off a strong enough mirror.

Both also come to look after the 'kid' of the group (Tomoki & 'Kitty' Pryde/Jubilation Lee) in their own unique way.

I didn't see anything wholesome happening between Kouji and Tomoki. In "The Island of Misfit Boys", Kouji wanted to ditch Tomoki. After that, he never talked to him again. The Kouji/Tomoki relationship is the same as the Yamato/Mimi relationship; they were both there.

In addition to being a genius, McCoy was a football star in high school, before joining the Xavier School. In spite of their size and shape, both are quite agile.

You don't have to tiptoe around it. McCoy was a fat kid like Junpei. Another interesting thought: Beast and Storm (Storm's white outfit, not the original black one) look a bit like Beetlemon (Blitzmon) and Kazemon (Fairymon).

Tomoki & Katherine Pryde/Jubilation Lee:

Perhaps the personality is closer to the girls', but you have to admit; his powers, and being the youngest of five, make him closer to Iceman outwardly. It's also uncommon to cross over genders in these comparisons.

Kouichi & Victor Creed:

I had considered this, but the Apocalypse and Archangel thing seemed too perfect. Also, both Kouichi and Angel realize the error of their ways, whereas Creed just does what he wants (often that's mercenary work).

except Kouichi never started out as a hero.

He was the twin brother of a hero. That's close enough.

Cherubimon & Sinister:

I had considered this one. It would make Lucemon Apocalypse, assuming the Age of Apocalypse, and that would make Kouichi Nathan Grey. Of course, Nathan Grey became X-Man, and he's the reason I decided to start writing for this site.

Arbormon & 'Black' Tom Cassidy:

Banshee's brother? If you're going to go that deep into the roster, and if you want someone with plant powers, why not take Alpha Flight's Medicine Man?

It gets good ratings in the US, and so they continue to dub it. It gets good enough ratings injapan, and so they continue to make new episodes.

I know, but I'm saying that it gets good ratings because the kids want to see the characters from their cards and video games on T.V..

As for Ash and anyone "fucking" in Pokemon or Digimon, the show is for little children, not young adults, teenagers, or business professionals, so there will never be "fucking" inthe show, nor will there be foul language or overly dark overtones.

I know that won't be happening. I was joking about the prospect, but that is what it would take to get me to watch again.

However, a story driven primarily by a single character could still be good -- it has been done in various mediums and styles.

I disagree. I think you need a fairly equal team. Not every kid can relate to the same character. They need different characters to choose from. If their character isn't getting equal air time, they have a right to be pissed. I like some shows that star one character. For instance, I like (liked) Yu Yu Hakusho, but only because the main character looked like me and fought street fights like me.
Alright, it's 2:30 A.M. on the East Coast, and I just spent two hours on this (I work slow), but it was worth it to me.

[BGAGTGAB]

People complained about how Frontier was a departure from what made Digimon Digimon - the monster partners. I can see that point, but I do think it wasn't intended to be something other than a Monster Trainer show. I initially had the distinct impression that the spirits had their own personalities and that it'd be important later in the series.

Anyway, if the characters not having partners was a serious mistake, then having a single protagonist is in my opinion an even bigger mistake. YMMV, of course. I feel I have to point out that having a team of kids was as important to Digimon as those kids having partners that would battle for them. A single kid with a partner would be... V-Tamers... or, frankly, Pok