Do all parents have trouble letting go?

[Nate Hunter]

Collin, we would not have stereotypes if there was no truth to them. Are they stupid? Yes, because it casts a lump sum definition over people. Are they wrong? If we rely on them to classify everyone as being that way, then yes. Are they false? NO. They are based on some truths, seen by the observation of people by the observant. They may not be absolute, as every person is unique, but the more you say here, the more you reinforce the stereotype we are seeing that you have put yourself into.

I have asked you a question, Col, and I'd like an answer to it.

My belief is that if you cannot be happy without something, having it will not make you any happier. If you can't be happy without a 50" Sony Grand Wega television, having it won't make you any happier.

So please, I want to try to understand this: How will having these piercings make you happier or more satisified or more comfortable with yourself? I've done my debating, now I want you to try and justify and explain to me how and why you feel this way.

[rorancrystalwolf]

Well I am well over with debating this topic. I think this got a little out of hand. Sorry if I insulted you Wise, I am just trying to figure out the scource and reasons for the discrimination against everyone who is modified( whether it be tattoos or piercings).

Sorry I didn't answer your question Nate.

Well I think that when one gets piercings they are showing there body that they are in control. It may sound wierd but when you think about it, our bodies rule alot about our lives, and any modifications of any type will show that the modified are proving that they can take care of those bodily burdens. Besides , I see the human body as a canvas, and as an artist, I hate to see any canvas medium to go to waste.

[Wisemon]

Well I am well over with debating this topic. I think this got a little out of hand. Sorry if I insulted you Wise,

You have to strike a nerve to do that. You just swung blindly.

How will having these piercings make you happier or more satisified or more comfortable with yourself?

Now that's a well posed question.

I see the human body as a canvas, and as an artist, I hate to see any canvas medium to go to waste.

But your fifteen minutes are just about up.

Of course Wisemon's using one sided remarks: it's called his opinion. That's what an opinion is, it's his "side".

The only difference is that I used real facts to support my argument instead of Bill O'Reilly style facts.

Here are some of the most common stereotypes that I hear, most of which are wrong.

What you've listed are a bunch of broad generalizations. When I said that you fell into a stereotype, I meant a specific stereotype.

Really? There seems to be quite alot of your "type" around here.

Along the same lines, agreeing with me on one point does not put others in the same classification as myself. Ku Klux Klan and C.E.O.'s both vote republican most of the time, but does that make them the same?

[Nate Hunter]

Sorry I didn't answer your question Nate.

Well I think that when one gets piercings they are showing their body that they are in control. It may sound weird, but when you think about it, our bodies rule a lot about our lives, and any modifications of any type will show that the modified are proving that they can take care of those bodily burdens. Besides, I see the human body as a canvas, and as an artist, I hate to see any canvas medium to go to waste.

Note: small spelling errors corrected above.

Here's a point where we seem to conflict again. I now see a bit of why you feel this way, but this leads us to a fundamental difference in our thoughts.

When one does anything that is contrary to their bodily desires they show the body that they are the one in control. Refusing to masturbate, cutting back on food intake, exercising. Overcoming any of our primal urges clearly shows our body, and others, that we are in control. While I won't deny that piercings can illustrate control of the body, I still feel that it's a display of poor caretaking. After all, abuse is a form of control. Some people starve themselves to show control, or force themselves to vomit, or gorge on food. So many people attempt to show that they control their body by doing abusive things to it that we seem to forget that the body is a part of the self that should still be treated with love and respect.

Do our bodies rule much of what we do? Of course they do -- our primal instincts to survive and copulate are the driving force through most of our life, particularly our adult life. But our society seems to have more control over what we really do by the imposed images of how we should behave. It's not our body telling us that skinny, bean-pole women are attractive, but society. In fact, our body tells us otherwise -- our body gives us attraction to larger bodied women who demonstrate a more ready supply of food. I've given numerous examples above of other ways to overcome bodily desires and show the body who's in control, though, and though they can be taken to an extreme and abusive degree (ignoring a consuming appettite can lead to starving oneself, for one), they all strike me as better ways to respectfully show your body you are taking control and responsibility. In my mind, what you are saying is akin to saying "I'll take care of this house that I've just inherited" but you do so by tearing out rooms you dislike to show that this is YOUR house now.

I've already addressed your "any type of modifications" segment as well, in the block above, but let me say that causing or risking more burdens does not show that you can take care of them.

Lastly, you say you see the body as a canvas. Well, graffiti artists see every building as a canvas. What they do is still a crime, no matter how artistic it may be. Artistic right or wrong does not absolve you of the blame for abusing your body to show it you have control, just as it does not absolve a graffiti artist of the blame for defacing someone else's property. The difference between these examples is that while the graffiti artist is working on another's property, you are working on your own -- but there are still laws about keeping one's own home in good repair, and you can be prosecuted for failing to repair broken windows and having a house that has been damaged to the point it is unhealthy to live in.

Lastly, I feel that we ought to be taking advantage of the canvas of our life over that of our body. To my mind, the canvas of our body is already a perfectly beautiful piece of art that requires no tampering, even if our shape is not ideal. If you want to show control and change that canvas, do it through non-destructive means such as diet, exercise, meditative practices, martial arts. But destructive methods, such as starving or binging on food or crink, causing damage to the body because you can, and risking your physical health are stupid ways to show that you are in control. And don't quote me any IQ numbers here: Stupidity shows in what you do, not in how you think. So too does being a dumbass. Neither has to do with intelligence, only with actions.

I hate to see a perfect piece of art being desecrated simply because the owner doesn't like it. The artist knew what they were doing when they made it, whether that artist (in the case of the body) is divine, otherwise supernatural, or the sheer chance of natural generation. Whatever you believe shaped your body as it is, if there's an imperfection, it's not something I feel abusive behaviour is necessary to fix. After all, we don't try to fix Van Gogh's paintings, do we?

[Nate Hunter]

Here are some of the most common stereotypes that I hear, most of which are wrong.

What you've listed are a bunch of broad generalizations. When I said that you fell into a stereotype, I meant a specific stereotype.

Some of what he listed were stereotypical points, which by their single point nature can be nothing more than a broad generalization. If you were to combine all of those points listed which refer to a specific group, you would have the basis of a stereotype.

Stereotypes are based on large amounts of experience, though, not observations of a single individual. However by observing a single individual we can classify the stereotype, or stereotypes, into which that person fits.

Collin, your actions, particularly within this thread, have given us the image that you are a young, probably caucasian, male who wants to rebel against parental authority by doing a thing his parents forbid. For some men this may be riding a motorcycle, for others it is receiving piercings. This desire is fairly common during the teenage years, more so than any other time of life. You have shown us that you seem to fit a somewhat emotional stereotype, and seek to rebel through conformity with one or more groups of people. You enjoy Hot Topic, and in so doing show conformity to the dark, rebellious side of pre-teen and teenaged behaviour. You seek to get piercings and in that show conformity to a stereotype of body modifiers. You have said that you aren't doing it to be like everybody else, but that's what everybody else says too. This shows that you are trying to be a nonconformist by accepting a conforming bahaviour pattern which you admit is addictive. You say steretypes are "wrong and stupid", when they are the tool of enlightened people to help see and identify behavioural patterns.

Collin, you even say that as a scientific experiement (quoting Wisemon on that portion), Humanity needs to be ended. This shows that you are a bitter nonconformist teen, most likely caucasiam or passable within the caucasian majority, who wants to rebel, but doesn't know how to do it without following someone else's lead. You are, stereotypically speaking, the "rebel without a cause". Just because you've found the path you'll follow doesn't mean you have found your cause.

Again, apologies if this, along with or separate from my previous post, rekindles the debate over this issue. But I think we are now beginning to see some serious thought on both sides of the issue. I got my answer to the how, and I thank you for that Collin. So now, let's see if we can keep discussing this without resorting to name calling or one-liners.

EDIT: Apologies for any typos that may be present here, but my keyboard seems to in a disagreeable mood today.

[rorancrystalwolf]

You deserve my thanks as well. Your opinion and view is very well put and described. I appreciate your views. When I said that it needed to be ended, I meant that, In my opinion, the human race is an infectious deisease amongst our Mother Earth. I know that probably sounded pretty hippie like but I am very protective of the Earth. To be honest I think that I do fit into a stereotype and as you said, I do know the darkness that dwells within us, however my liking for Hot Topic isn't just teenage angst. To be honst, I have a fascinatuion with anything gothic, whether it be arcitechture or clothing. Call me morbid but I like that kind of stuff. Whether or not you think this, I believe that I am alot more advanced then my peers in the mental sense. I am not the average teen and I think that I have alot more figured out then my fellow teenage neighbors. ( Wow I can't stand talking about myself like that)

[Herr Mullen]

When I said that it needed to be ended, I meant that, In my opinion, the human race is an infectious deisease amongst our Mother Earth.

I demand my right to exist.

[rorancrystalwolf]

Well good for you Mr. Mullen. Just don't trash the place while we are here is all I am at.

[Harie Krauzer]

In my opinion, the human race is an infectious disease amongst our Mother Earth.

Isn't calling ourselves a disease and saying our mother Earth a bit incorrect? Would that be like calling babies an infectious disease? I could understand cancer.

To be honst, I have a fascination with anything gothic, whether it be arcitechture or clothing. Call me morbid but I like that kind of stuff.

Okay, here is a slight pet peeve of mine. By Gothic architecture, I'll assume you mean buildings that were built in the Gothic era or to buildings that were built to emulate it. Either way, to be very honest, Gothic architecture has little to do with darkness or morbidity. The actually emphasis was closer to light.

[rorancrystalwolf]

I know but thanks to my stupidity I meant to include the death and bones statement in there... so I didn't mean to call the gothic era morbid but a totally different statement that I was stupid enough to not type... damn... sorry