Just a general question of mine while doing nothing much worth mentioning. I was kind of curious as to why most of women's lib would fit into one of these two main groups.
There's either the kind of women who vertually screams for equal rights and then wants their date to front the tab instead of them paying for it themselves. I mean, if they want equal rights, so as to be treated as equals, why can't they pay for it with their own money? I mean, if they want to be as equal as all that, then what's the problem with me paying for my meal and her paying for her's?
Also, another group that they commonly fit into, is the kind that will refuse to be associated what-so-ever when it comes to a guy. For example, you could be on a bus, a woman get's on, there's nowhere to sit, you offer her your seat, and she hollors at you to "sit down!" What's wrong with general politness? Since when did trying to be polite or helpful suddenly become grounds as to be shouted at or put down?
Anyway, if anyone has any answers to the above questions, feel free to post a reply.
I suppose a lot of these women must have had bad experiences with guys in the past, or have been brought up to naturally dislike them. Maybe you can get born with such a dislike as well, I wouldn't really know, but I suppose it's not impossible. They can see something wrong in everything you do just because they WANT to. If you offered them your seat you might be implying that they, being women, are somehow weaker and less able to last through a bus ride standing up than men. If you failed to offer them your seat, it's because you think you deserve it more for being male, which makes you a chauvinist pig. You just can't do anything right in the eyes of these women. They hate you because you're male and they're looking for excuses to do so, so they won't feel bad about themselves for being nazi bitches.
I'm glad to say I've only ever known a handful of such women - thank god... :roll:
EDIT: I'd like to add that these are the kind of women I consider feminists (women who think they're BETTER than men). I consider women's lib to be something else, namely women wanting to be EQUAL to men, which makes a whole lot more sense for me. I'm all for women's lib, but feminism? Uhm, no thank you, I'll pass... ^^;
Goerge Carlin said it best: Most feminists are white, middle class women that are only worried about their own reproduction rights and their pocketbooks.
I personally try to be a gentleman. I hold open doors. I don't fart/burp as loud as I can around a women. I'm working on the cursing problems, but sometimes they push it too far and I just gotta say "Shut the fuck up." And if they don't, I'll just stop listening. It's all I can do. I can't bring myself to hit a women even if she really, REALLY needs to be.
But not every person is a gentleman. Some guys are rude, chauvinist pigs
that treat women by steriotypes. Hell I do that sometimes but thats male nature to feel domenant just because we have a dick. That's how it was way back in the old days but hey girls, we're getting better at least.
This brings up two very interesting questions. What defines a feminist, and what defines a gentleman? I'd like to answer these questions with a couple of anecdotes.
Last year, I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt that said "Feminism is not a dirty word". That shirt was inherently hypocritical, because he was only wearing it to get laid. He was neither a feminist nor a gentleman.
In sixth grade, a girl in my class with the most notoriously developed breasts had her friend grab my hand and try to place it on them, but I resisted. The girl grabbing my hand asked me if I was gay, and I said, "No, I'm a gentleman. I'm sure _(left blank to protect anonymity) is a very nice girl, and maybe if we were dating and I got to know her...but I'm not going to feel up a stranger." As it turns out, there were about 10 girls in on it. Since I had entertained them the whole year as the class clown, they wanted to reward me by getting me to touch a boob, and they wanted to give me the best. Girls will be girls. Sixth grade was very good to me...and then it all went horribly wrong. Anyway, there's an example of gentlemanly behavior.
As someone who's done plenty of manual labor, let me say that feminism isn't necessarily a bad thing for guys. Let the women do some of the grunt work. In a civilized society, there's no reason why they shouldn't be treated as equals. That opinion makes me a feminist.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if it was to be treated as equals, but unfortunately that's not the way it is. I believe that most of these feminists and women's lib want it so as to either get all the benefits without having to do any of the other stuff that comes with it i.e. manual labor, or they want it simply because they believe that all men are pigs and want to parade around as if they are superior in every other way to them.
Weather it be that they want to be treated as they always are but with better benefits, or they want it so as to be superior to men, it does not matter. In short, from what I can see, this is all set up to be more than "equal rights." They do not want equal rights. They want it in the way where it would favor them the most even though that the particular method to do so would actually place them on better terms than most other men.
I guess I can stop wondering why there aren't (so m)any girls on this board.
Saying "why do most women's lib fit into one of two groups?" is kind of a loaded question. That's like saying "why do most black people either act all violent all the time or get offended if you joke around with them by speaking ebonics?" Or "why are all gay guys really effeminant or super butch?" Stereotypes. Stereotypes. Stereotypes. Sure you've at least had a few experiences so you're not just pulling examples out of your butts, but I think it's a little too much to expect every girl to think of what she's doing in political/feminist terms. It's easy to critique someone's actions in any way you wish, but I seriously doubt that most females are constantly conscious of their behavior and/or want to be classififed as feminists. They're just people like us (I think) who want love, and sex, and money, and to just put their feet up after a long hard day.
In the end, it's all in how you define these terms. I've never heard anyone describe feminism as the belief that women are
better than men. If anything, all I've ever felt it was associated with is equality. Equality in the workplace, equality in the family, equality in society. I'm a big believer in that, and no, it's not just because I want to get laid. Yeah, guys can be feminists too and it doesn't mean that they're just looking to pick up girls at a rally.
I think that any intelligent girl, be she a feminist or not, would understand that there's nothing wrong with letting a guy open a door for them, and that there's nothing wrong with accepting a seat if someone offers them one. If they don't want to, they can definitely find nicer ways of saying no. That girl sounds more like a plain old bitch than a feminist to me.
Angeteen Wrote:Personally, I wouldn't mind if it was to be treated as equals, but unfortunately that's not the way it is. I believe that most of these feminists and women's lib want it so as to either get all the benefits without having to do any of the other stuff that comes with it i.e. manual labor, or they want it simply because they believe that all men are pigs and want to parade around as if they are superior in every other way to them.
They want it in the way where it would favor them the most even though that the particular method to do so would actually place them on better terms than most other men.
Well, if you believe that manual labor (and physical strength) should define who gets more rights in this world, then I guess you're right, but I don't think that's how it should be.
I don't understand how women want to "parade around as if they are superior to men". This isn't some "girls vs. boys" contest -- nobody in the world thinks of it that way.
zarima: angel of blood Wrote:Goerge Carlin said it best: Most feminists are white, middle class women that are only worried about their own reproduction rights and their pocketbooks.
Zarima, your a guy right after my own heart! George is a fine comic and he does bring up subjects that would be considered as taboo in our present society! Just remember that he DID agree with feminist that men are ignoant, brutal assholes, who've just about ruined this planet, because someone out there might have a bigger DICK! But some feminist take themselves too seriously, trying to undermine rational behavior of men. So, as they spew their insults at me I just laugh it off and make jokes about them! It does make me feel better and it pisses them off to no end, makeing them the butt of a joke!
SaberGatomon said it, and I'll say it again! 
I think rights should be related to work -- If you want to be treated the same as me, do as much work as me. I fyou want to be treated better, do more work, or more important work. If you don't want to do any work for your rights, I don't think you are in any position to complain that you're being treated unfairly. I believe this goes for men and women, both.
In my experience, 'equal rights' and 'feminism' are flip sides of thesame coin. Both have good points, both have bad. My experience is that a Feminist is the type who finds fault with men regardless of what actions they take -- they usually feel superior to men. But at the same time, if they are out on a date, they expect him to pay the bill -- but not without arguing over it. If he pys without arguing she feels he thinks she can't pay, and if he doesn't move he thinks it's her job to pay.
Of course, women in general have some huge behavioural problems as far as I'm concerned. It's a horrible source of stress in my life right now, too, mostly because of my mother... That's space for my own rant, though, and I won't bring it here. The problems are they expect men to hear what they don't say, and understand when they disguise what they're saying. The only difference, IMO, between a woman and a cat is that women have the choice of speaking intelligibly.
Am I a 'chauvinist pig'? I don't think so, but I'm sure there are people who would if they met me. I always try to behave with the manners I feel are appropriate -- if that means letting the ladies get on the bus first, I do that, if that means yelling 'shut the fuck up bitch!' at the top of my lungs, I do that. Normally I stick with the polite side of my manners, but sometimes I slip into the inner-polite that everyone at my schools used. I try to be a "gentleman", and that hasn't gotten me any more than a female friend, IRL.
And when it comes to the old "I'll call you" line, girls use it just like guys. I know from experience. In conclusion: I'm all for equal rights as long as you do equal work. I don't support bashing of either gender, though sometimes verbal attacks are necessary to relieve stress. Anyhow, Equal-rights are usually good, Femininsts are usually less good. Yeah, that about sums it up.
Quote:Saying "why do most women's lib fit into one of two groups?" is kind of a loaded question. That's like saying "why do most black people either act all violent all the time or get offended if you joke around with them by speaking ebonics?" Or "why are all gay guys reall effeminant or super butch?" Stereotypes. Stereotypes. Stereotypes. Sure you've at least had a few experiences so you're not just pulling examples out of your butts, but I think it's a little too much to expect every girl to think of what she's doing in political/feminist terms.
Good point, Quicksand Boy. The title of this topic probably wasn't very appropriate, if you look at it that way. But I think that's not what we're discussing. I presume all of us are perfectly aware that "Feminist Nazi Bitches" are only a small majority amongst feminists, and our comments, I believe, are all directed at that minority. At least mine where, apart from the bit where I made a distinction between "feminists", who want women to have better rights than men and who I'm against, and "women's lib", which only wants equal rights and is just fine and dandy IMHO.
Also, I don't see what that would have to do with the absence of girls on this board. As far as I can remember, no topic like this one has ever come up before.
Quote: think rights should be related to work -- If you want to be treated the same as me, do as much work as me. If you want to be treated better, do more work, or more important work. If you don't want to do any work for your rights, I don't think you are in any position to complain that you're being treated unfairly.
Rating people by how much or what work they do?That sounds like a very bad idea to me. It's not as if everyone could chose whether to work or not, or what work to do. Example: You're in your late teens or early twenties. You live in a poor part of town. There's not much work available, your education wasn't very good. You need cash, so you take the job at Burger King's. Okay, so you sell people fattening foods all day; that's both not very hard labour and pretty damn unimportant. The world can live without Burger King. Does that mean you're worth less than the middle-class white guy from the other end of town who is going to university and will be a scientist one day? Just because the work you do is less important than that he does? Or are you more important, because your work is harder than his? And what if you get sacked because your company is downgrading and can't find another job? Are you worth nothing because you don't work? Take it from me, most unemployed people do want to work. I know plenty of 'em, amongst them my own father.
I mean, rating people on whether they work has been done before, in communist countries. I don't know whether it was done in all of them, but I know they did it in the former German Democratic Republic and in Poland, because I have visited and have relatives in them both. There, you could be arrested for being unemployed too long, or not following a regular job. In some cases, the police actually arrested unsuccessful artists and writers, because they decided that painting or writing wasn't a proper job unless you were successful in it. I mean, is that right? Is that justice? And in todays age, where a lot of people, say, run commercial websites and are self-employed, wouldn't that make them all worthless as human beings as well? Or, look at it from another angle: Hitler worked reasonably hard to get to the top. So did Stalin, Mao, Saddam Hussein and many others of the like. Does that make them good people? Hardly.
And who is going to decide what's hard/proper work and what isn't? I don't think anyone can tell unless he's done it all.
I think people should be rated by their behaviour. Someone who does very little work but respects other people, makes their lives nicer with his friendship and is willing to help out if they are in need is, IMHO, worth a lot more than someone who might have worked himself to the top but is bitter and treats people badly.
Also, I think it should be considered all right for people not to do ANY work at all, even if they have a choice -- although, if they make that decision, society shouldn't give them anything back, at least not in wordly terms. That would be reserved for the people who do work, or are at least willing to.
EDIT: Also, I think saying that women in general suffer from behavioural problems is pretty sexist. Sorry, there's no other way to put it. Not all women are the same!
Unless of course one assumes that men have huge behavioural problems too, in which case everyone would have behavioural problems, which is probably quite true and not sexist.
So isn't somebody going to tell me that I'm an idiot for not taking the feel when I had the chance? It's been nine years and I haven't gotten another opportunity like that. Still, I don't regret my decision, because it proves my character...though it's somewhat off-topic. No, I can bring it back. This is about equality, and equality starts with respect. The reason why women have been kept down historically is because they're physically weaker, and because men are horny and have a tendency to see them as objects. Like I said, in modern times, these factors are eliminated. Machines do the heavy jobs for humans. Monogamy supercedes the primordial need. Of course, respect has to go both ways. Women have to respect men, but I think that most women, even most feminists, do.