Holy Digimon Batman! Using Digimon for crime fighting?

[Cyber Stryker]

Grab, you're ranting rhetoric.

And you're still avoiding the issue of the morality of using your partner against human criminals. The way you're talking is as if you had a partner they'd be like a possession you can order around. Self defense and the defense of others is one thing, but using digimon in this way doesn't even fit the spirit of the series.

So far all the incarnations of digimon have had a huge problem in the digital world that eventually bleeds over into the real world to cause another set of problems. Now if the criminals were smuggling digimon out of the digital world, or doing experiments on them is different then routinely going out and looking for trouble just because you can.

Even Beelzemon's gun works much differently than a real world shotgun and therefore needs a different tactic to be dealt with.

[Nate Hunter]

Well, late in to this discussion, but here goes:

I do not think a Digimon series in which the digimon only fight human criminals would work. It might make a nice side-story, or maybe you could findanother way of working it out, where some of the criminals have digimon too, and maybe some of them ARE Digimon. Maybe you build up to the point where it's a sort of mafia with a Digimon like Vandemon (but not Vandemon himself) as the top, so ultimately it does boil down to fighting Digimon.

Now I'll address some of the other things brought up later on...

I am polite, but I am not politically correct. Political correctness leads to the inability to accept negative comments, such as insults or jokes, in a positive manner. But, there are certain policies I agree with in the world of Amrican animation and dubbing, at least concerning what gets televised. Is it wrong to teach children that violence is not the answer? Is it wrong to teach them that there are BETTER ways to handle people than jut fighting and killing them? I don't think it is wrong to do that.

However, I don't think it is right to shield children and say that violence is NEVER the answer. Some enemies, some threats, must be treated with respect and dealt with by their own measure -- murderers must be killed, for example. Many anime have suffered under the modern restrictions of what can be aired, shows like Tenchi Muyo (at least the videos and DVDs weren't edited) and Dragon Ball (original and Z -- I can't say about GT as I've yet to see more than parts of an episode of it). Others have suffered needlessly to be "politically correct", such as Cardcaptor Sakura and Rockman EXE.

Now to address some more... sensitive issues. The children depicted in anime are not REAL children. They are children viewed through the eyes of adults, and as such are often considerably more mature and intelligent (by several years at least) than a real child of comparable age. Even in Japan. A fourth grader, fifth grader, sixth grader... these children, in a real-world situation, are not of the maturity to truly handle the realities of fighting for ones life or killing. Anime children adapt to these situations far better than any of us would IF WE WERE THAT AGE.

You mention Batman and Spiderman. Probably two of the best vengeance-driven heroes out there, each views it a different way. Batman was young when he saw his parents killed, yes. However he didn't immediately begin fighting crime as Batboy after that -- he spent years learning how to fight, learning how to read evidence and clues, and learning how to BE the world's best normal crimefighter. He was an ADULT before he donned the cape and cowl and became the Batman.

Spiderman, on the other hand... Peter parker was in high school when he gained his powers. Physically he was an adult, and he was a science "geek" at that. He initially used his powers to earn money, not to fight crime, and his reaction when asked to stop a single mugger was "Why is it my concern?". If you know anything about Spiderman, you know that the answer bit him in the ass before he started fighting crime as Spiderman: That mugger killed his uncle. But guess what: Spiderman didn't go out and kill the mugger, though he wanted to. In the end he turned the mugger over to the police. A better solution, and one he has applied to every villain where it was possible.

You want to look at other young heroes? Maybe Robin? Robin (the first Robin) was driven by vengeance, but Batman wouldn't let him kill over it. In addition he had the benefit of years of trainign as an acrobat before Bruce Wayne adopted him, and several years of schooling before he began fighting crime with the Batman. Power Pack (Marvel comics, their series lasted about 4 years) were young too, but they didn't go out killing the criminals and supervillains they fought. Does this make them "bad" superheroes or bad role models for kids, because they don't kill? I really doubt it.

There is still the issue of the morality of using Digimon as tools of crime fighting -- if the Digimon has free will, what if they don't AGREE with being used to fight crime. What if the digimon themselves are unwilling to fight human criminals because they know it would be unfair? Digimon partners aren't slaves or objects to simply be told how to act or behave, they have their own unique personality.


Grabjuri:
Maybe you need to look at both sides of the fence before you decide that one side is flawed while the other is perfect. You'll probably see that the flaws on one side are matched on the other, and that it's fine as it is. Try looking at reality instead of fiction -- most children don't feel too much push for independence until junior high school, not upper grammar school.

The reason many anime are not brought to the United States of America is not because they are "offensive," but because nobody is willing to pay the licensing fees to bring them over and the costs to have the script translated, the lines matched to the lip-motions, and to pay voice-actors for the ADR process. If you were right, we would no more have gotten Evangelion than Pokemon -- indeed we'd probably have gotten some other "harmless" show like Doraemon instead of Evangelion.

The bootom line on why many anime are not dubbed is this: Companies usually need to know that they will make back their investment before they undertake a project, and most anime aren't worth it because is spite of the community, there isn't enough reliability in the sales of the "lesser known" series. Sad, but true.

[grabjuri]

The last 2 posts were extremly interesting and level headed. I enjoyed them greatly. The idea of the digimon having free wills and not always doing what the human partner wanted is incredibly attractive to me._______In my first post I gave ideas on 5 possible digimon and a snapshot of radically different personalities and motivations, The first was the pacifist. He would believe no violence is justified. Violence only begets more violence. The pacifist would try to reason with everyone. His human partner would be so frustrated they might even split up. The kid might try to find another digimon to replace the pacifist and get into huge trouble in the process._______The second digimon would be the grim violent one, The jje. His partner wouldn't want to have these criminals executed by his dgimon partner. But how would he stop something that powerful? He would want to leave them tied up for the police. This pair would be the mirror image opposites of the pacifist and his partner. The only way the kid could halt the jje would be to give up hunting for criminals.__________The next was a female digimon with a girl parter, This digimon would be seeking approval. Maybe this female digimon could take on human form as a disguise. The 2 girls would spend more time window shopping than crime fighting. Maybe there would be an idol singer contest and these 2 girls would enter it. If they were in the finals, would they give up crime fighting for a shot at stardom. And what if an agent wanted to represent them. He finds out one girl is a powerful digimon when they save him from muggers. Will he keep the girls secret?____________Another was the babysitter. Also a female digimon. This one would be trying to keep her human partners out of trouble. For you would have the 2 youngest kids as her partners. A boy and girl who are next door neighbors and have grown up together. They would be more of a comedy relief team. A young pair of quicksdraw Mcgraws and a very large Babalouie. _________The last is a digimon that is a lot like bugs bunny. Smart as a whip. 4 steps mentally ahead of the criminals. He would enjoy making monkeys out of the criminals. A huge sense of humor, and a sucker for a dame in distress. This is how he teams up with his human partner, a little girl. She uses emotional blackmail on him initially. But this digimon can also take on human form as a disguise. He appears as a handsome young man. Girls go crazy over him in his human form. And his little girl partner becomes very jealous!__________In a lot of anime the action sequences take second place to character development and just having a lot of fun with the characters. Showing them eating, sleeping, going to school. At an amusement park, or swimming. Dealing with parents, siblings, teachers, wonderfully strange classmates. This is what I watch anime for. The side stories. The 14 Tenchi OVAs and first 7 El Hazard OVAs. This is what makes anime fantastic!_________Having 5 wildly different teams will allow you to do any kind of story you can dream up. This is a small sample of what can be done. Drama and comedy mixed well._________On ranting, I speak from experience. Observing what causes PC people's hair to stand on end. Both from watching fan subs at peoples houses ( Non anime fans would be invited by a friend ) and at conventions where people would drift into the anime video rooms. These people would loudly and clearly tell us how horrible these shows were. These programs they said with their hair standing on end were unsuitable for children even though they were aimed at 9 through 12 year olds in Japan.__________Also it is not just the commercial factor that causes producers here in the U S to not option a program. They have to calculate how much grief this program will cause them. PC is wide spead in the entertainment industry. Don't take my word for it. Ask Mel Gibson. One owner of an anime company who shall remain nameless told several of us, he would never touch Magic Circle Guru Guru because Nike and Kukuri were traveling alone and sleeping in the same tent every night._________Another was petrified by Sana and Hayama from Kodomo no Omocha. We have cornered these guys at conventions to try getting them to consider our favorite kid shows that are being ignored. The idea of 10 year old boys waging war in mechas, and 10 year old girls falling in love is too much for them to handle. Far too much grief. Way too much risk. They will stick with the teen shows only.

[Wisemon]

Spiderman, on the other hand... Peter parker was in high school when he gained his powers. Physically he was an adult, and he was a science "geek" at that. He initially used his powers to earn money, not to fight crime, and his reaction when asked to stop a single mugger was "Why is it my concern?". If you know anything about Spiderman, you know that the answer bit him in the ass before he started fighting crime as Spiderman: That mugger killed his uncle. But guess what: Spiderman didn't go out and kill the mugger, though he wanted to. In the end he turned the mugger over to the police. A better solution, and one he has applied to every villain where it was possible.

We were about even on X-Men knowledge (you might have me beat), but do you think you can top me on Spider-Man? As an example, I own the costume, and I wore it three out of four years for Halloween in high school (I actually went to school in it). I was 70 pounds overweight, and wearing bright spandex with nothing underneath. Now that's a fan.

[grabjuri]

At an anime convention I saw a man who weighed about 400 pounds wearing a Di Gi Charat costume.

[Nate Hunter]

Wise, I sent a reply to you by PM, but I'll publicly say this: My high school years were a bit more dominated by the Star Wars fandom than anything else, so I didn't follow everything X-Men or Spider-man back then.

[Gnostic Metatron Prime]

Also it is not just the commercial factor that causes producers here in the U S to not option a program. They have to calculate how much grief this program will cause them. PC is wide spead in the entertainment industry. Don't take my word for it. Ask Mel Gibson. One owner of an anime company who shall remain nameless told several of us, he would never touch Magic Circle Guru Guru because Nike and Kukuri were traveling alone and sleeping in the same tent every night.

Mel Gibson's a special case. For one thing, his initial idea was to leave the subtitles out of the film, and considering that it's all in dead languages. For another thing, it's a film that's devoted almost entirely to the death of Christ. There's nothing to be seen of his birth, or his works, and very little time is given to his resurrection. It's been called the most violent film in history.

And plus, there was the fact that Mel Gibson's religious zeal made some distributers nervous. He openly admitted that his film would offend people. And star Jim Caviezel admitted that he was injured several times by some of the various tortures that Christ endured (BTW, that's not a stunt double of Caviezel hanging on the cross, nor is it an animatronic. With the exception of a few wide shots, during which a rubber stand-in was used, he's up there the whole time.) And Mel made a big mistake by not distancing himself from his openly anti-Semitic father.

Ultimately, though, Gibson ought to be thanking all the "PCs" who stood in his way. The controversey drove up ticket sales, and because he had to spend his own money to make the film, he didn't owe any money to any backers, and thus, his $30 million investment paid out over $360 million in the US alone, making it the 10th most successful film in history.

Another was petrified by Sana and Hayama from Kodomo no Omocha. We have cornered these guys at conventions to try getting them to consider our favorite kid shows that are being ignored. The idea of 10 year old boys waging war in mechas, and 10 year old girls falling in love is too much for them to handle. Far too much grief. Way too much risk. They will stick with the teen shows only.

Are you sure they weren't just concerned that they were being accosted by full-grown adults demanding to see cartoons meant for 9-12 year olds...?

At any rate, does it really matter if the distributers won't pay to bring the anime to the US? You could probably buy the videos of the original Japanese shows from online stores that specialize in anime. And should that fail, you could try the file-sharing networks, like Kazaa. And, as shown by Cardcaptor Sakura, the dub would probably suck anyway.

And, if you are really concerned about what messages kids are receiving, don't be. While TV is still the prevailing medium, there are these things called books, which the PC people have failed to censor. Let's see...

- Despite numerous attempts by both PCs and Conservatives, Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn is still widely available.

- Terry Pratchett's Equal Rights features an 11-year-old girl falling for an older boy, and I believe they do end up together. I don't believe that it has ever been on any banned book list.

- In Wee Free Men, also by Pratchett, a 9-year-old girl does battle against an evil Queen. Not only has it not been censored, but it has even won several awards.

- C. S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia series features young kids fighting against armies on several occasions. Not only are the books considered classics, but they are some of the only fantasy books that haven't been condemned by the Religious Right.

- Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, from which Digimon has borrowed several ideas, features a boy and a girl traveling through several dimensions, including hell, on a quest to usurp God. They travel almost entirely without adult supervision, and indeed, throughout the series, adults are for the most part portrayed as evil and controlling beings who would go to incredible extremes to stop the children. There is a hell of a lot of violence, plus a lot of adult themes, and the kids do fall in love with each other. However, the book is usually marketed towards kids. It's also being adapted into a movie.

[grabjuri]

The posts by all of you keep getting better and more interesting. In C S Lewis's " The Last Battle " The 7th Narnia book, there is an ape that finds a lion skin. C S Lewis was dealing with the British PC crowd back in the 50s. The character of the ape was his parody of them._________" You don't know what freedom is! Real freedom is doing what I tell you to do! "_________If I remember that is about what the ape tells the animals of Narnia. He wanted to buy collars and kennels and chains and whips. If he was a parody of the British PC people, he was a pretty good one.__________I just saw today that an American company has bought the rights to Kodomo no Omocha! I feel sorry for the U S voice actress that has to dub Sana's voice. She will probably lose her voice the same way the girl who did Excel lost her voice and had to drop out.________I talked with a woman that owns a small animation company up in Canada. She told us of the trouble she ran into with the censors. She had a storyboard of a little girl walkining into a door that was unexpectedly opened by another child. She bumps her nose and falls back on her rump.________The censors wouldn't allow this. They explained she could not depict anything a child might immitate. For instance, little Billy watches it and thinks that was funny. He decides to open a door so little Tommy walks into it and bumps his nose.__________The censors forced her to do new storyboards. She had half a dozen stories like that.________Another fellow told of how him and 2 other artists came up with a submission for a series they called " Little Red Riding Hood Ninja." He said no one wanted to deal with a little girl knocking off the wolves. That was 10 years ago. Maybe Cartoon Network would have given them a hearing if they were still around.